Do Not Submit to Narrative Magazine
A comment on the previous entry, from one "Jordan":
Hi- I came across this blog and think your readers might be interested in submitting their work to Narrative Magazine- it publishes fiction, non-fiction, poetry, art-- everything! And they also have some writing contests going on now that your readers might be interested in. Thanks!
Hi Jordan.
Personally, I rather think they wouldn't, or at least shouldn't.
Narrative Magazine requires a reading fee for submissions, so as a professional writer I would actively discourage anyone at any level -- and especially if you're still starting out -- from ever submitting to it. Money should always flow to the writer, period. Any magazine, agency or imprint that asks for a reading fee is reversing that flow -- to all intents and purposes, asking a writer to pay for the privilege of a mere hope of publication. While some might seek to justify reading fees in this or that circumstance, I'm in the camp with many others who say, loudly and clearly, FUCK THAT SHIT. Particularly in this sort of example.
Regardless of whether actual publication is paid, that reading fee places Narrative Magazine in the realm of vanity press and poetry chapbook competition scams. You will most likely not see publication, and will instead simply be out of pocket by the reading fee. Which is to say you will have been rooked, amigos.
All aspiring writers should consider the generally vast slush pile that they are most likely just another speck within. But even on the odd chance that one is lucky enough to earn back that reading fee via acceptance you should then be aware that your good fortune is literally at the expense of all those who have paid money for the privilege of being read (by those who may well already have quite sufficient material for the next few issues, thank you very much, but hey, that's not going to stop them taking your twenty bucks, sucker.) You are leeching off all those who have succeeded only in subsidising the hobbies of the editors and their contributors, all those who have ultimately been treated as dupes to be reamed to support this project. Personally, I consider this a profoundly unethical venture.
I would submit to the most miniscule small press magazine that paid in copies, even to a webzine that could barely afford $5 per story -- hell, I'd submit to certain non-paying markets where a positive return might be gained in the form of exposure, or publish my work free on this blog -- before I would submit to Narrative Magazine, and I'd highly recommend all my readers do the same.
Moreover, Jordan, the stone cold fact that your comment is revealed by Google to be outright spam -- posted verbatim on other blogs -- not only strengthens my suspicion of Narrative Magazine to outright condemnation, but leads me to leave your comment on that post as evidence -- and in fact to repost it here to highlight it -- along with my public response, in no uncertain terms:
If you are reading this as an aspiring writer, please do not ever submit to Narrative Magazine. They are demonstrably spammers and almost certainly scammers and are to be avoided like the fucking plague.
Update: Oh, and while you're at it, do feel free to click through this link to Eric Rosenfield's journal entry about Narrative Magazine and its editors, which expresses a similarly low opinion of these fuckers and contains a number of comments that put them in an even darker light. And deserves to be nice and high in the Google hits, I'd say.
Update Update: And what do you know, but the winner of one of last year's competitions seems to have been a friend of the editors!
Thanks.
Hi- I came across this blog and think your readers might be interested in submitting their work to Narrative Magazine- it publishes fiction, non-fiction, poetry, art-- everything! And they also have some writing contests going on now that your readers might be interested in. Thanks!
Hi Jordan.
Personally, I rather think they wouldn't, or at least shouldn't.
Narrative Magazine requires a reading fee for submissions, so as a professional writer I would actively discourage anyone at any level -- and especially if you're still starting out -- from ever submitting to it. Money should always flow to the writer, period. Any magazine, agency or imprint that asks for a reading fee is reversing that flow -- to all intents and purposes, asking a writer to pay for the privilege of a mere hope of publication. While some might seek to justify reading fees in this or that circumstance, I'm in the camp with many others who say, loudly and clearly, FUCK THAT SHIT. Particularly in this sort of example.
Regardless of whether actual publication is paid, that reading fee places Narrative Magazine in the realm of vanity press and poetry chapbook competition scams. You will most likely not see publication, and will instead simply be out of pocket by the reading fee. Which is to say you will have been rooked, amigos.
All aspiring writers should consider the generally vast slush pile that they are most likely just another speck within. But even on the odd chance that one is lucky enough to earn back that reading fee via acceptance you should then be aware that your good fortune is literally at the expense of all those who have paid money for the privilege of being read (by those who may well already have quite sufficient material for the next few issues, thank you very much, but hey, that's not going to stop them taking your twenty bucks, sucker.) You are leeching off all those who have succeeded only in subsidising the hobbies of the editors and their contributors, all those who have ultimately been treated as dupes to be reamed to support this project. Personally, I consider this a profoundly unethical venture.
I would submit to the most miniscule small press magazine that paid in copies, even to a webzine that could barely afford $5 per story -- hell, I'd submit to certain non-paying markets where a positive return might be gained in the form of exposure, or publish my work free on this blog -- before I would submit to Narrative Magazine, and I'd highly recommend all my readers do the same.
Moreover, Jordan, the stone cold fact that your comment is revealed by Google to be outright spam -- posted verbatim on other blogs -- not only strengthens my suspicion of Narrative Magazine to outright condemnation, but leads me to leave your comment on that post as evidence -- and in fact to repost it here to highlight it -- along with my public response, in no uncertain terms:
If you are reading this as an aspiring writer, please do not ever submit to Narrative Magazine. They are demonstrably spammers and almost certainly scammers and are to be avoided like the fucking plague.
Update: Oh, and while you're at it, do feel free to click through this link to Eric Rosenfield's journal entry about Narrative Magazine and its editors, which expresses a similarly low opinion of these fuckers and contains a number of comments that put them in an even darker light. And deserves to be nice and high in the Google hits, I'd say.
Update Update: And what do you know, but the winner of one of last year's competitions seems to have been a friend of the editors!
Thanks.
posted by Hal Duncan | 8:59 PM
18 Comments:
Ha! I concur.
It cannot be said more loudly. Narrative Magazine sucks.
If I could say it more loudly, I would.
Update update update: I twittered this and heard back from David Schwartz that he got the same spam. Looks like Jeff Ford did too. So, yeah, they're pretty clearly trying to co-opt established writers' blogs and journals to draw in any aspiring writers in their readership(s) who might be naive enough to buy into their mug's game.
Fuck, if "Jordan" was just pimping the mag as an interesting read, I'd have happily deleted the comment as annoying but innocuous advertising spam. But spam-for-a-scam... I'm really hoping more folk will pick up on the pay-to-play angle, so this bites them on the ass.
I found this link via Nick Mamatas http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/. I'm glad you posted about this, I noticed the "market" listed on duotrope.com a few weeks ago, was intrigued by the professional look of their website, and the quality of the authors advertised. Of course the reading fee of $20 for fiction immediately eliminated the market for me, I just put it on my ignore list, but I couldn't help also being put off by the tone of the guidelines. The fee is described as "nominal," and also described as lower than many lit mags subscription fees. That may or may not be, but at least with a subscription to a magazine you get, you know, ISSUES OF THE MAGAZINE that you subscribed too.
I noticed on another part of the site they are also soliciting general donations for a mere $10, half of what they charge writers.
"Jordan's" spam posting is just beyond the pale. Using the same tactic as a boner pill pusher. Jordan, come on, at least write individual pitches to each of the blogs you "come across."
Narrative Magazine is the Poetry.com of fiction. I have about half a dozen friends who volunteered to be interns for Narrative, mainly as a resume-builder. These friends (and I say this with all due respect) are NOT established fiction writers or poets, or experts in the field.
They've explained the process to me and here's what happens: INTERNS, not editors, log in and read what somebody has paid to have considered. If they don't like it, out it goes. The editors do NOT read work unless it has the interns' OK. Editors also mostly solicit "famous" writers for work, meaning "new" or "emerging" writers don't have a prayer.
Here's the final nail in the coffin: the editors are infamous for giving major prizes to... you guessed it... their friends.
Just noticed they are asking for short submissions for iStory. It's sort of preposterous to charge $5 per word PER WORD to read a story.
Here's a comment to anonymous -- while I completely agree that Narrative is scam-like, the fact that only interns read the entries, is NOT. This is rather a standard procedure for most if not all literary agencies and publishing houses. How are the few editors supposed to read every bit of crap that is submitted to them?? I worked as an intern at an agency and hated it, but that being said, it's rather standard for interns to be the preliminary reader. Of course with those agencies writers DO NOT PAY for the interns to read their submission and that is the distinction I'd like to make.
I think I know what the answer will be but...I was going to submit to Literary Latte, $10 fee for up to 3 shorts, seemed reasonable but...what do you know about them? thanks! Mitch, new to all of this...
Hmmm, from what I can see the reading fee only applies to contests. The general submissions page makes no mention of it. Of course, the general submissions page also makes no mention of payment, so I'm curious as to how they'd respond if you sent them a story without the ten bucks.
Are they going to read it as a submission without the reading fee? If they think it's awesome will they publish it... but without payment via the whole contest malarky? If so, as long as you're not paying, well, arguably you're not being rooked per se, but what are you getting in return for your awesome story? The pleasure of publication? Hmmm.
Whether or not you're willing to forego payment (or rather the chance of payment as a contest-winner) is a personal judgement, I'd say, on the basis of any non-tangible returns. I'm not big on this scene, so I can't speak to whether this particular mag has the right people reading it, say. Like, Electric Velocipede only pays in copies, but the mag is read by the sort of folks who edit Year's Best anthologies. Submitting to a magazine that's not going to send you a check may be worth it in non-monetary terms, but I can't say if this is the case here.
And still, EV does pay in a way... just in copies. Similarly, a webzine like Lone Star Stories could only afford to pay a token payment, but that's at least payment. If these guys can't pay, like, $20, $10 or even $5 per story published... again, what's in it for the writer? Unless someone can answer that with something more than "the pleasure of publication," I'm not seeing a huge draw here.
Ultimately, I guess I just don't like the idea that a whole bunch of writers pay $10 to submit their short shorts, with most getting fuck all in return, some small percentage getting published, and only one getting paid. I don't like the notion that the pleasure of publication is all the reward a writer should expect, that payment is a special boon granted by the powers-that-be to the extra-super-special. Bollocks to that.
Ugh. I cannot believe Narrative Magazine is still in business, but I guess it's true what they say about a sucker born every minute.
On the subject of submission fees for reading, I admit I am rather torn as an editor of an online literary magazine, as I believe low reading fees of $1 to $2 (something equivalent to the postage and printing fees of yesteryear) could actually help to improve the quality of submissions overall. As in, if you have to think about spending that two bucks to submit, rather than simply blasting out 30,000 copies of your latest screed, you might go back and polish it a bit to make sure it's worthwhile submitting it for review. Asking someone for a $20 handout is obscene and unethical, as in Narrative's case (and I think we can all agree on that), but what are your feelings on these nominal fees certain magazines nowadays require?
Hi Laura: I'd question whether those nominal fees will really function as a disincentive to the delusional -- those who can't write for shit but blast out submissions in a misguided belief that if they sling enough of their garbage/genius at enough editors, well, *eventually* someone will recognise... the uniqueness of their vision. The worst writing comes from uncritical thinking, to my mind, so it goes hand in hand with crank-level approaches to submission.
So it costs two bucks to submit my plotless therapeutic drivel in which Mary Sue is torn between werewolf Harry and vampire Draco (who are also shagging, natch) to a magazine that specifies "no SF/F genre fiction, no erotica"? Don't matter! They're bound to recognise the genius that is me, so I'll make that back when they buy it!
As someone who shared a flat with the co-editor of a paper zine, Territories, way back when, in the age of snail mail, I remember him being driven to distraction by one writer who just kept firing submissions at him, sometimes more than one a week, and all regardless of the cost of paper and postage, etc.. The cost didn't make him think twice.
For writers with less (misplaced) confidence, it might discourage them, but these might be newer writers who actually have skills they just don't yet feel sure enough of, in themselves. What if the story's actually up to par, but that self-doubt just leads them to submit to a non-paying market instead -- because that's sort of an easy way to test the water? Or if they do build up the bottle to take the risk, what's the message being sent to someone with that novice's insecurity, when they have to pay for an editor to consider their work? I think it risks reinforcing any nascent sense that they're... a supplicant of sorts, rendering an offering in the hope that the powers-that-be will deem them worthy. It fosters a notion of publication as a privilege, a blessing, rather than a straight-up deal in which it's purely a matter of the quality of the story. Like, the editor isn't bestowing the boon of publication on the writer, any more than the writer is granting the editor the privilege of publishing their story; it's a fair exchange between equals, a mutually beneficial agreement based on a shared valuation of the story.
And if it's a writer who's reached a level of skill and confidence in their own work? Well, my own view on it is that if I offer you a deal that's blatantly not right for you, you can reject it instantly without a whole lot of effort. Aren't the stories you're trying to clear out of the slush pile ones that you can pretty much reject on the basis of one paragraph, if even that? If, on the other hand, you have to read it through and consider it, well, that means it has, at least, been worth that time and consideration.
That's a fair exchange that takes place even before publication, to my mind, time and consideration on the one hand, the opportunity to publish under complete acceptance of your terms on the other. In any cover letter, I'd thank an editor for their time and consideration. If they want me to pay for it, a wry part of me would be awfully inclined to say instead, "Here's two bucks for your time and consideration. Out of curiosity, if I gave you five bucks, would you give it *more* time and consideration?" Cause, hey, if it's not bad form for the editor to monetise that deal, it's not bad form for the writer to haggle for a better one, right?
What I'm getting at, I guess, is that you could drive away writers who know their craft -- and know that they know it. They know their story is a good product, sellable as is if they can just match it to the right market, if that market exists. They'll look for the most apt venue with the best rates, and knowing how much editorial taste may factor in here, how easily that can lead to rejection, they know it'll likely take a few tries to place it. If it's something a bit out there, it might not place at all, simply because outre is a hard sell. In that sort of pragmatism, paying to submit is a good reason to give a potential market a pass.
Ultimately, given the likelihood that you're as well just burning two bucks, that nominal fee may be more of a disincentive to a writer taking a no-nonsense approach to it all, someone at a level of skill and confidence such that they want to earn their crust from it, or at least treat it as a secondary job, a vocation, even though they need a day-job to get by. These are as likely to be broke as anyone else, *more* likely if they're fool enough to be trying to make a living from it. As nominal as it is, that fee might get me nothing in return, and cost me the coffee I need to buy in order to use a café's free wifi when my interwebs get cut off cause they're not paid up. It may not get me a pint of Guinness, but it'd get me a bag of pasta. So, yeah, with plenty other magazines paying pro-rates and accepting e-subs, I'm not likely to hit up one that has a reading fee at all.
If you look at who's being featured in the magazine, all the writers are established, well known writers. So the chance of rising above the slush pile readers, getting it to the editors and then having the editors actually publish it is really slim. It's better to submit to a contest, at least there you have a better chance. But chances are, you're wasting your money going after Narrative. To get published, start with real small press and make your way upward...
I'm so glad I found your blog. I am one of those novice, emerging (well, unemerged) writer-hopefuls. I heard an interview on NPR yesterday with Carol Edgarton and I was all jazzed about sending in some pieces. I guess I have to say that now I have reconsidered and am very disappointed. I am disappointed in NPR for letting her plug Narrative on their show. There was no mention of writers paying fees for submissions.
Thanks for the "heads-up."
I just checked further and I found that NPR says this of NM:
"The magazine's diverse array of creative approaches has established a variety of revenue sources and publicity strategies for the magazine and its writers."
Hmm, I guess the revenue source is the submission fee paid by all those poor souls. Publicity stategies aka spamming registered users.
Oh, NPR, I am disappointed in you! But I can see loads of reasons and PR ties for you not telling the truth.
I may be off base, but my understanding of how NM operates is this: You don't just pay a fee and then your submission gets published; you pay a fee to enter a contest of your choosing and if you win that contest then you get published. Though I'm not a defender of NM -- in fact, I don't profess to know that much about it -- I have to say this seems like a legitimate way to operate. Most contests I know of charge entry fees. Hell, you even have to pay -- or, I should say, your newspaper has to pay -- an entry fee to be considered for a Pulitzer Prize in journalism. And I'm pretty sure the same holds true for publishing houses who nominate their authors' books for the big P. So I'm not sure what the perceived problem is with NM. I mean, NM may well be a scam somehow, for some other reason, but I don't think the particular rationale set forth on this blog or in this comment section necessarily supports that conclusion.
You're right that it's not a vanity press scam -- pay for the privilege of being published -- but the contest with entry fee scheme is basically asking you to pay for *others* to be published.
Think of it as a raffle where 500 people all pay $5 each for a ticket -- $2500 coming into the pot -- with a chance of winning one of five $100 prizes, the two grand being used to keep the raffle running, pay the judges. Would you enter such a raffle knowing that it's not for charity, that those running it are pocketing any profits? Maybe so. There's still prizes, and everyone has an equal chance of winning.
But actually they don't here. You don't win from your ticket being picked randomly; the best-decorated tickets, in the judges' opinions, are what win. Those running the raffle know -- because this is the truth of every slush pile -- that the vast majority of entries will not be worth even considering, are in fact making a strategy of this: they're looking at the naivety of novice writers as a resource to exploit. It's a business model based on selling as many raffle tickets as possible to children with crayons, while expecting to select their five from maybe a dozen accomplished artists to enter. If they're actively soliciting pros and getting subs from known and respected names, the raffle essentially has ringers going straight into a top tier.
You might just luck out if you're good enough -- the raffle is not rigged -- but the raffle-runners are still being deeply cynical. It's like they're running the raffle at some massive party where they know hundreds of people are going to be so drunk they'll enter enthusiastically with utterly incompetent work. They also know there's going to be highly skilled and sober artists there -- because they invited them. The latter they're relying on to come up with prize-worthy goods. The former they're relying on to fund the whole enterprise; and the more drunks there are exercising bad judgement, the better.
So, in the end, they don't just passively take money from the enthusiastic and incompetent; they actively *tout* for them by spamming pro-writer blogs like this, understanding that novice writers are likely to read such precisely *because* they're enthusiastic and incompetent, interested in what writers have to say in general and specifically looking for craft discussion that might help improve their work. It's like trawling the bars, actively *searching* for drunks who'll buy a raffle ticket and scribble on it.
As far as I'm concerned that mercenary strategy utterly discredits them to the point I'd actively discourage anyone from having anything to do with them. This isn't an annual prize, bear in mind; their "contests" are actually a strategy for funding an ongoing magazine by essentially charging you for a standard submission.
By any chance do any of you know if those interns got paid? Is the money writers are paying to submit going to the interns who read the stories?
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